PSS in conversation with Neurodivergent Birth

On this week’s episode of PSS in Conversation With, we are joined by Victoria White from ND Birth (Neurodivergent Birth CIC). Victoria unpacks how ND Birth improves support for neurodivergent people across the perinatal journey—through CPD-accredited training for doulas, midwives and perinatal MH teams, rooted in four pillars: sensory processing, communication, executive functioning, and mental health. She shares their upcoming neurodivergent-specific antenatal course, a global ND-friendly doula/antenatal teacher directory, and how course income powers a Doula Access Fund so neurodivergent parents can access tailored support.

We also dig into the intersection of hyperemesis and neurodivergence: why HG can become “sensory hell”; the role of interoception and possible hormonal sensitivity; and practical ways to cut overwhelm at home and in hospital (low-stim environments, eye masks/earplugs/headphones, familiar textures and “safe” foods)—prep that also doubles as smart birth planning. For healthcare professionals, Victoria offers simple, high-impact adjustments: ask what the individual needs, adapt communication, enable reasonable adjustments under the Equality Act, and support tools/reminders. Her closing message: neurodivergent parents have the right to equitable care—and bring powerful strengths in attunement, problem-solving and advocacy.

For support with Hyperemesis Gravidarum please visit www.pregnancysicknesssupport.org.uk 

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

We have got Victoria White from Welcome, Victoria. Thank you. Thank you Lindsay. So first of all, tell us a bit what you do. And yeah, we just want to know Thank you.

Speaker 2: 0:15

Okay. So indie birth. Um, we are neurodivergent birth So we're a not for profit social And we exist to improve support for neurodivergent people as they navigate the whole perinatal time. So we kind of do that in two We have training, CPD accredited training for birth professionals. So that can be, uh, doulas, anybody who works with people. Perinatally. And we're working with NHS So midwives and perinatal mental And our training aims to improve awareness of the neurodivergent experience of perinatal time or the potential experience, because we recognise that not every neurodivergent person is going to have the same experience. Um, but also kind of gives people, um, in line with So, um, we have the right to reasonable adjustments to our care in line with equality legislation. So that training, we focus on pillars of neurodivergent birth. So they are sensory processing, functioning and mental health. So we've deliberately kind of think it's important not just to individual labels, if you like. Um, but to look at kind of the neurodivergence and how it can But we also got some funding last year, which was amazing to, um, put together an antenatal course that's specifically for neurodivergent audiences. So that's due to be released And I think the bit that we're we get most excited about is the fact that the, the income that we make from the training courses, um, goes directly into a doula access fund, so a neurodivergent person can apply to access that pot to pay for doula support. Um, and I mean, I'm a doula, so but we recognise that actually a positive sort of Addition to a perinatal time, because you get trust, that understanding of And unfortunately, in our struggling to access that That's that's so helpful.

Speaker 1: 3:01

That sounds amazing. What a combo. So yeah, there's so many aspects And I was looking on your you have like a kind of MND And it's amazing. It's like it covers everywhere Yes.

Speaker 2: 3:21

So we've it's been so Um, the course has been going And yeah, we've had lots of people from the UK, but we've had a lot of interest from, um, the States, from the Netherlands, from Australia as well. In fact, we have an accompanying listened to in Australia, which So yeah, we've tried to make the specific, although it definitely UK, I suppose, as a, as a bit of Um, but people can apply to be on our doula directory or antenatal teacher directory for free. It's just a free registry. And we want neurodivergent people to kind of have quick access to, okay, where can I connect with a doula who is either themselves a neurodivergent person, or they have some lived or professional experience or training in supporting neurodivergent people. So I think we've got over fifty dollars on the directory at the moment. Um, and yeah, it's, it's it's a neurodivergent people to use. Definitely.

Speaker 1: 4:29

That's fantastic. Do you have some kind of, um, like a process that people have to go to in order to get on to that friendly and Indie friendly doula list.

Speaker 2: 4:40

It's quite straightforward. It's just a Google form. Um, you know, if you've done one great, because we know you and our CPD training. Um, but if you haven't, then for you to share. Perhaps if you've done some equivalent training somewhere or you've been working supporting neurodivergent people, or you have that, um, personal experience as well, because a lot of there's a lot of neurodivergent birth workers out there. So that's always kind of an interesting conversation to have. But yeah, it's very straightforward application form. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 5:14

Fabulous. I mean, it sounds like there's a across the world actually. Then it sounds like podcasts are a big hit in Australia, which is great. Um, but it's, you know, I guess you've spoken to is not, um, a It's very complex. And so it sounds like you're expanding people's understanding Offering something different, So what led you to set up Where? Where did that come from? I know you said you were a What else was going on that you thought this is definitely needed?

Speaker 2: 5:52

Um, I so I've been working as a years now, and around about the into the doula work. Um, we were also going through process for my eldest daughter. So she's now she's nearly nine. Um, she was diagnosed when she was five, and she is autistic and she has ADHD, so she's an all year. Um, and I think two things One, it really prompted me to And I think that's quite a neurodivergent children because us, and we kind of see them go that really reflect what we just have a different lens of So it really has. Yeah, been a bit of a experience as well. But I also thought, gosh, we the context of birth or, or I really on how, you know, as an to go through pregnancy from all Or if you're somebody with ADHD and you have executive functioning challenges, how do you make it to appointments and how do you deal with all the executive functioning challenges that life with a newborn baby brings? So I started to look into it as And, um, it initially was an Instagram page and a podcast, and then it just kind of evolved from there. And I realized that there is going on in this field. There's quite a lot of academic work, research going on, and particularly in the UK, about particularly how to improve the autistic experience of our maternity services. But I felt like, um, I wanted to neurodivergent audience because, research is going on, but I speaking to people about it and, within the healthcare service. So I put together this initially it was accredited with But then as we were getting a lot more interest from the NHS, we went for accreditation with the UK's CPD certification service. And yeah, now, now we are where But it's an exciting time. We're expanding this year up, you know, so far it's basically been myself delivering the training. But we're going to start a September so that others can and hopefully we'll have a wider connections with more NHS trusts geographical spread as well, Scotland, which isn't ideal for,

Speaker 1: 8:50

So logistically it's, uh, it's Not the most central, but lots and I'm guessing that's true. We do more.

Speaker 2: 9:00

Yeah, we do most of our stuff online, but it's nice to have the option as well to do the in-person, too.

Speaker 1: 9:06

I think the practitioner really, really useful. And and like you say, will expand the reach, which is great. Yeah. Um, and thank you for sharing journey with this, because it's, really passionate about. So it's yeah, that kind of So I guess obviously we're talking about the neurodivergent experience. I think it's really relevant to be talking about this with you from a kind of hyperemesis perspective, right? Because it's such a pregnancy experience, isn't it? But when you add in hyperemesis hell really, doesn't it? So I wonder if you can kind of speak to that intersection of hyperemesis and neurodivergent birth and your understanding of it.

Speaker 2: 9:50

I think this is a huge topic, of blows my mind a bit in terms two and our lack of But it's very interesting and hopefully we will get to understand it better through research so that we can better support people who are suffering with hyperemesis. I had hyperemesis with both my know, I think I will forever experience of having having gone Um, I think I mean, when we look at anecdotally, there's definitely a link between neurodivergent people and hyperemesis. A lot of neurodivergent people say the same as I have just Um, when you look into the research, though, there's not really anything particularly talking about that link, except for a paper that was, um, published in twenty twenty one, which looks at the link between experiencing hyperemesis in mothers and the in inverted commas. Because this isn't my language, the risk of the child being autistic. So they put together that kind of, um, that correlation that, you know, if the mum had had hyperemesis, the children were more likely to be diagnosed as having autism. Um, I think that's really And you and I have spoken a bit language around the article is intake in the mum affecting Um, but the question I immediately have is is that, you know, are the mothers who've had hyperemesis neurodivergent themselves. And the genetic component is what explains the, the higher incidence of, of autism in the children. So I think, I think that's be talked about. There's also, um, you know, the side of things. So we know a little bit about, um, the fluctuations in estrogen and, um, the neurodivergent experience, for example, of menopausal symptoms. And, um, there was a study in twenty twenty two that concluded that because of these changes in, in because of these fluctuations in autism, um, resulting in kind of different experiences in neurodivergent people. They concluded that neurodivergent people might have a different hormonal balance, or they might be more sensitive to hormonal fluctuations. And when we think about that in the context of hCG, so human chorionic gonadotropin, which um, is obviously linked to hyperemesis, then potentially there's something going on there, right? I mean, I'm speculating researched, but I think it does link between hormonal, um, sort hormonal sensitivity, I should Um, the thing that worries me a potential for shame and for for in women and birthing people who If you're in the throes of hyperemesis in your pregnancy, you're probably already feeling a lot of shame around not being able to function on a daily basis. Potentially not being able to get to work or if you have other children, not being able to parent like I really struggled with, not with my second pregnancy, because I couldn't look after my eldest daughter who's autistic and really needed me. But I was, you know, bedridden. Um, we're already feeling shame bodies to nourish our growing shame around taking medication. So I feel like this adds another If the message to, um, women and potentially, and again, in language of impairment, but in some way to your baby. So, um, it's definitely um, thought and research. Um, I think one of the things um, from a neurodivergent side of things, You know, the around the nausea, the feeling vomiting if you are being sick. Um, and also, um, neurodivergent people tend to have differences in how they experience interoception. So interoception is how we feel And that can include nausea, but thirst and hunger and a need to If we're if we have challenges with our interception that can make the nausea harder to manage, because maybe we're not responding to cues around hydration and hunger, for example. So it can it can almost exacerbate what we're already struggling with. Yeah, that's a that was a lot of

Speaker 1: 15:06

No, that that's so interesting. And I think I think you're And all of those things you've So that piece of research is It's a longitudinal study isn't And so it sort of tracks these, about ten years, I think. So it's been a long time in the making, but the conclusions are slightly tricky. Um, from a from a hyperemesis perspective, because there's it feels a bit like there's an allocation of blame there for the mothers. And that in some ways, because bodies and our babies. The interesting thing about consider the reaction that lots to a healthcare professional in don't worry, your baby's getting Um, and yet this study shows So in some ways, I think it it actually, we need to be really women are able to, um, you know, they're able to nourish their themselves and therefore their And rather than it being this acceptance that it's just you've just got to suck it up and deal with it. Actually, we need to.

Speaker 2: 16:18

Your bones and. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 16:21

All those all those resources Yeah. They'll use those. Yeah. But but I think, you know, if perhaps it means that, um, treat early on and like, We need to get ahead of this. I think then the flip side of and shame and responsibility of the burden of actually you and I both know. So I think it it is really research into it because I think something and then just kind of So we need more, we need more. But I think also linking into your comment about the sensory experience, I think that that inner self, the sense of your inner workings and, you know, your the pain receptors, we know often neurodivergent people experience pain very differently. And yes, the idea of nausea, which is intolerable to some people, like actually properly intolerable. The debilitating nature of hyperemesis means that that nausea is constant, and it's very likely that neurodivergent people will struggle more with that. Yes. In addition, there's the sensory inputs, which become really difficult. So already neurodivergence often sensitivities to sensory input. So, um, you know, bright lights Yes. Nobody puts the big light on in Um, it sounds being tricky loud kind of everything is an issue, The wind coming through the window is an issue because it's too much. So I wonder if there's anything experience of both hyperemesis that it's possible to reduce you're managing hyperemesis. Like, what could individuals do and what could healthcare kind of establishments do in order to kind of manage that a little bit?

Speaker 2: 18:23

It's so tricky, isn't it? Because when, you know, for the people who are, for example, hospitalized with hyperemesis, there's and if you're a neurodivergent person with sensory sensitivities, it's a really, really challenging situation to be in because you need to be in the hospital to be receiving the treatment that you need. But the hospital is a horrendous bright lighting and its loud people and the temperature. So I think it's I think it's And we do this in the context of So it's it's it's no different be in these spaces that you think about those from a sensory might be challenging for you. So you might want to think about bit of a toolkit that will help that sensory input. So that might be things like eye music or, um, just to earplugs But it might be things like having comforting items with you, you know, the clothing that's familiar or a weighted blanket from home, anything that's going to help you to regulate from a sensory point of view. And I think for for healthcare awareness that some of those be supported because, um, help this person to feel better. And when we feel better, then, feel that overwhelm from the But I think maybe as well, if you're somebody at home, I mean, I think back to my, um, experience of spending a lot of time in bed at home with hyperemesis. I mean, I, I intuitively made my You know, it was a dark room cool breeze, I suppose. I can't remember what time of It was Christmas time. So maybe the window wasn't open, but, um, it was it was a room that I naturally needed to kind of minimal sensory input in any way. And that's always going to be you're in a space where there's got other children, and it's sort of sanctuary from a sensory But I think, yeah, just being aware that you can if you can lower, if you can help regulate your nervous system through things like the sensory side of, of things. Um, then that's going to help nausea because these things all You know, when we're feeling more anxious, when we're feeling more stressed, or when we're feeling overloaded from a sensory point of view, we feel worse. And if we're trying to just kind feeling, you know, as good as we of, um, realms of experiencing people means, you know, never just kind of taking the edge sensory side of things is going Definitely.

Speaker 1: 21:37

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's really manage the environment when Yeah. When you go out it's really And that's why we see lots of struggling with going out and out, because not only is it triggers with noises and sounds Yeah, but also, you know, the are more difficult to, to, to Um, and, and the thought of vomiting in public is not it's not great, is it, for most of us. But also thinking about the hospital experience and how you can make that slightly less overwhelming. I guess it's trying to bring And I guess what we naturally find is that women will be drawn to things that they can tolerate. So with, you know, with drinks often those become much more And you kind of.

Speaker 2: 22:34

Definitely.

Speaker 1: 22:35

Things that normally you would be fine with, like drinking water for example, suddenly becomes completely impossible because it suddenly smells funny and it's not cold enough and all that stuff. So just going with what feels best that we can do. Isn't it really in those in too much about is it healthy? Is it good for me? Is it, you know, are these my No. But right now that's what's

Speaker 2: 23:00

That's all you can do. And I think and again, we talk planning for your birth as well. Think about the foods that are for you completely like safe feel. Um, give you that sensory input as well because food is a very sensory thing. So. So having things sometimes whatever it is, um. Very salty. Like those things can help regulate your nervous system as well. So. Whether you're, um, you going into the hospital for you're planning a birth that Think about these things because the the food that's going to be available in the hospital is unlikely to kind of meet those requirements.

Speaker 1: 23:44

Very unusual. If it does, you might get the You might get the odd piece of But is it crunchy toast or is it Because that might make a So that's so interesting. And it's and it's also lovely to you're planning some of these treatment, actually they extend So it's a it might feel like I'm just doing this because I need to go into hospital for this, you know, period of time for admission. But actually, longer term, this can be some birth planning as well. And, you know, thinking ahead.

Speaker 2: 24:15

Your birth plan, absolutely everything that's going to make you feel better now and help you feel regulated, help you feel safe. Ultimately, this is all about emotional mentally, um, We want to feel safe. We want to feel regulated. And so anything that helps while and hyperemesis is going is also your birth environment and

Speaker 1: 24:41

So we could suggest that to prepare these kind of through hyperemesis, you're birth planning game, aren't you?

Speaker 2: 24:53

I love that. Yeah, absolutely. It's all it's all good prep. Definitely.

Speaker 1: 24:59

I love that. Oh, it's been so interesting I wonder if there's anything in particular that you think that healthcare professionals could do to better support neurodivergent people in general, in the kind of maternity services? I know you've mentioned a few about sort of just understanding some of it and understanding that that women will need different things to regulate them, to kind of make them feel safe. But is there anything in particular beyond that that you think could be useful you'd like to see in maternity services in general?

Speaker 2: 25:33

I mean, I'd I'd love to reassure people, reassure professionals, I suppose, um, that if if all they can do, if, if all they do, perhaps they don't have training. Perhaps they haven't had much experience of supporting neurodivergent people that they know of, because they will have done it because, you know, up to twenty percent of the population is neurodivergent. You don't need to know all the details of the DSM five criteria. You don't need to know all the You just need to be able to support a person as an individual. So if you can, if you help a person to feel comfortable in your presence, that they can share with you what will help them as an individual, whatever that looks like in terms of the sensory side of things or their communication needs. Because, you know, often we we styles and what suits one person Then you're already being a neurodivergent needs because realizing that, you know, not size fits all. Um, we need to ask people what works for them, and it might be something quite different to what you've done before in terms of how you're communicating your information or, um, how you're supporting somebody with their executive functioning in terms of helping them with a appointment reminders or whatever that looks like, but just just asking them what they need is. You're ninety nine percent of to do that.

Speaker 1: 27:10

Absolutely. And it's so reassuring to hear that in a way, because I think we know maternity services are stretched. Everyone's under a lot of And and actually, you're not that's going to take more time minutes to actually ask the What's going to help you? How can I communicate best with Yeah. Um, how can we support you best? But actually, once that's done, What you do isn't. It's not going to cost any It's not going to take up loads You're not asking them to of weighted blanket options or

Speaker 2: 27:46

Not at all.

Speaker 1: 27:47

Basically just asking the What do you need? What's going to help you?

Speaker 2: 27:54

And I think, I hope that that message comes across in our training that we're not talking about. Um, turning the system up on its It's not about completely overthrowing the way things are done now. It's often very small tweaks to the way that you deliver your service. You deliver your information that make big, big differences to the person who's who you're supporting. So, um, yeah, that's it's quite At the end of the day. Definitely.

Speaker 1: 28:22

Yeah. Simple and and manageable reasonable accommodations, which healthcare professional will the way through the day. And every interaction with certain way to one person is So we're naturally doing that This is just a slightly different way of doing it, I guess.

Speaker 2: 28:47

A different way of looking at Yeah.

Speaker 1: 28:49

Amazing. So just one final question like we could talk all day, but Lots to do. Um, what do you wish people knew having a baby?

Speaker 2: 29:04

I would love neurodivergent Probably more than one thing, if Two things. Um, one, um, you have the right your needs as an individual. I know I've already kind of said home enough because you're you're supported through the supported through the Equality you in a way that meets your with anybody else going through So, um, you know, never feel the right to that. Um, but I'd also like you to neurodivergent people, might question, you know, what? What's parenting going to be Can I can I do this? Am I going to be a good parent or am I going to feel overwhelmed? Am I going to struggle with the executive functioning challenges of parenting? And I just want to share that that neurodivergent people often make absolutely wonderful parents. I've noticed how in tune they are with their children, they have this ability to kind of think outside the box and to often say two fingers to traditional parenting methods, and they find ways that work for their families. You know, we are the people who are really kind of passionate at problem solving. We will research things to to information that we need. Hyper focus can become a very Sometimes it can be very And I and I, you know, would never say it's only a positive thing. But, you know, for anything that will be their strongest to be celebrated. And I, I want to celebrate the neurodivergent parents bring, wonderful, wonderful thing.

Speaker 1: 31:04

That is an amazing message. Thank you so much for that. Thank you so much, Victoria, for It's been so interesting. And I think the the whole kind of area of neurodivergence is really undergoing this evolution at the moment and maybe a revolution. And I think the fact that you've space is really powerful. So well done for all that you're it all grow. I'm sure it will.

Speaker 2: 31:29

And thank you for everything you You know, particularly as a throes of hyperemesis, the work work and it's so validating. So thank you so much. And and yeah, I look forward to chatting to you again on our podcast.

Speaker 1: 31:46

Absolutely. This is the first of many I'm

Speaker 2: 31:49

Thank you.